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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>Dear Thomas Noll,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>thanks for drawing attention to this
issue.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>Discussions around the theme of music compared to
language often suffer from faulty generalizations. D</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=171460808-22032009>ifferent kinds of
music are structured in diverse ways, and there is no "natural music" in the
sense that there is "natural language".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>As to classical tonal music, I think recursion is a key
concept to understanding its (much discussed but poorly
understood) "language-like" (sprachähnlich) character.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>I am currently working on a PhD dissertation (also
Berlin, Humboldt Universität) about "Recursion and Quotation in Classical
Music". Basic thesis is, that in the classical style the tonal language is
shaped in such a way as to enhance music's language-like character
(Sprachähnlichkeit). This facilitates a specific practice of quotation, which is
an exemplary recursive device.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>To investigate this further, the concept of hierarchy
should be elucidated, as it is present e.g. in GTTM to which you refer and
(dubiously) in Schenkerism. One key question is to which extent the harmonic
process creates levels, or is, as in common prejudice,
"linear".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>This is not a good moment to summarize my ideas, to
which I will gladly come back later. A preliminary attempt at addressing some of
the issues is contained in my Schenker-essay, earlier posted to this list, which
can be found on my website (<A
href="http://www.xs4all.nl/~lmuns/WhyIamNotaSchenkerian.pdf">http://www.xs4all.nl/~lmuns/WhyIamNotaSchenkerian.pdf</A>).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009>Best regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=171460808-22032009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Georgia>Lodewijk Muns<BR></FONT><A
href="mailto:lmuns@xs4all.nl"><FONT face=Georgia>lmuns@xs4all.nl</FONT></A><FONT
face=Georgia> <BR></FONT><A href="http://www.xs4all.nl/~lmuns"><FONT
face=Georgia>www.xs4all.nl/~lmuns</FONT></A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org
[mailto:smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Thomas
Noll<BR><B>Sent:</B> zaterdag 21 maart 2009 23:41<BR><B>To:</B> smt-talk
Talk<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Smt-talk] Classical Form and
Recursion<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>Dear Colleagues,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>last summer I participated in a cross-disciplinary workshop on "Recursion
in Logics, Language and Art" in Berlin, organized by the logician Ingolf
Max.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>One participant was the well-recognized linguist Manfred Bierwisch, who
argued in favor of a particular difference between natural language and music in
the light of the concept of recursion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>He said that music exhibits repetition in a variety of ways,
but – unlike language – it lacks instances of true recursion. My feeling is
that Bierwisch has a point. But I nevertheless feel the obligation to
challenge this assertion. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>My own contribution to this workshop addressed a transformational
approach to the theory of well-formed modes, and thereby implied a potential
counter-argument on a mathematical level. But I started to think of other
possible counter-arguments to Bierwisch's denial of recursion in music. 20th
century fractal composition techniques come to mind, but they are still
music-theoretical wall-flowers and wouldn't easily overthrow Bierwisch's
position with respect to common practice repertoire. Event hierarchies in the
sense of Lerdahl and Jackdoff's GTTM are candidates for recursive structures,
but their music-theoretical meaning cannot compete with the grammatical meaning
of derivation trees in linguistics. In the workshop I spontaneously summarized
William Caplin's analysis (Classical Form, p. 149) of the core of the
development of the 1st movement of Beethoven's F-minor sonata (Op. 2, No.1).
Recall that Caplin interprets formal syntagmatic units with formal functions,
such as presentation, continuation, cadence (closing function). If we understand
the core in terms of a loosely organized "super-sentence", we find units with
the functions presentation and continuation in recursive embedding - even if
only with depth 2. In particular the presentation of the model involves a large
portion of the secondary theme (including its presentation phrase and the first
bars of its continuation phrase). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>I would be glad to share this discussion with the list and to later
forward the thread to the participants of the workshop.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>Sincerely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=Helvetica
size=3>Thomas Noll </FONT></DIV><BR>
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<DIV>*********************************************************</DIV>
<DIV>Thomas Noll</DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll">http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:noll@cs.tu-berlin.de">noll@cs.tu-berlin.de</A></DIV>
<DIV>Escola Superior de Musica de Catalunya, Barcelona </DIV>
<DIV>Departament de Teoria i Composició </DIV>
<DIV>Tel (priv.): +34 93 268 75 19</DIV>
<DIV>Tel (mobil): +34 66 368 12 02</DIV>
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