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Dear List,<div>A useful mathematical means to study contour might be diastematic matrices or sub-structures thereof.</div><div>A diastematic matrix of a melody with n tones is an nxn-matrix whose entries at index (i,k) are +1, 0, -1 depending on the direction of the interval between the ith and kth note of the melody.</div><div>The matrix is antisymmetric by construction. A sub-structure of interest is the upper secondary diagonal whose entries refer to the "surface diastematic contour", i.e. to the up/down pattern of the successive intervals only. The full matrix considers all internal intervals of the melody in question. Chantal Buteau has systematically used these diastematic contour paradigms in her computational approach to some of Rudolph Reti's ideas.</div><div>best wishes</div><div>Thomas Noll</div><div><br><div><div>Am 20.05.2009 um 20:02 schrieb Stephen Guy Soderberg:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Over-mathematizing can be a fatal error, Dmitri (or at least unnecessarily limiting).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>In my opinion, multiplication is simply a subset of the (compositionally) much more interesting general idea being discussed.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>But since you bring up the math, I'm reminded of some wise words from Hermann Weyl in his little book, Symmetry:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"If nature were all lawfulness then every phenomenon would share the full symmetry of the universal laws of nature....<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The mere fact that this is not so proves that _contingency_ is an essential feature of the world."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I would only add:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>... and what makes it at all worthwhile to be alive.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Cheers,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Steve</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Stephen Soderberg</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Music Division</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Library of Congress</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dmitri Tymoczko <<a href="mailto:dmitri@Princeton.EDU">dmitri@Princeton.EDU</a>> 5/20/2009 9:46 AM >>></div> </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You're actually talking about something a bit more specific than just <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"preserving contour" -- as music theorists use the term "contour," <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">this usually refers to just the ordinal ranking of notes in pitch <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">space.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>So (C4, C#4, B3) and (C4, B6, Db3) have the same contour, <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">even though the ratio of their intervals is different.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>This is <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">because they both exhibit the sequence (middle, high, low).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Interestingly, the relevant geometrical space is the (n-1)-<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">dimensional sphere, which represents equivalence classes of n-note <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">pitch sequences under positive pitch-space multiplication.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Smt-talk mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</a></div> </blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>*********************************************************</div><div>Thomas Noll</div><div><a href="http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll">http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll</a></div><div><a href="mailto:noll@cs.tu-berlin.de">noll@cs.tu-berlin.de</a></div><div>Escola Superior de Musica de Catalunya, Barcelona </div><div>Departament de Teoria i Composició </div><div>Tel (priv.): +34 93 268 75 19</div><div>Tel (mobil): +34 66 368 12 02</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>*********************************************************</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span> </div><br></div></body></html>