<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>Re: [Smt-talk] First Species Question</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> </div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Dmitri:<div><br></div><div>David Boyden's <i>A Manual of Counterpoint</i> (Carl Fischer 1944, -53, and still in print in the '90s) advises against even "two </div><div>consecutive perfect consonances" (octave to fifth incl) (p. 13), on the grounds that "the harmonic effect is too thin in two-parts."</div><div><br></div><div>Salzer-Schachter calls the fifths you illustrate "anti-parallel" (p. 18) and advises against them not only for their parallel fifth-ness</div><div>but also for "the simultaneous occurrence of leaps." S-S approve, however, of contrary 8 to 5.</div><div><br></div><div>Your 3-voice ex below seems to show the fifths in two different pairs of voices. If my reading is correct, then there's no problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Re examples from the literature: since most Renaissance lines move mostly by step, with one voice 'holding down the fort'</div><div>when the other does leap, I doubt if there are many instances.</div><div><br></div><div>My own take on this (I've taught counterpoint for 20 yrs, first at the Manhattan School and now at Queens College, and, also, </div><div>I sing alto in the choir at the Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC): fifths are (and sound like) fifths, no matter what registers </div><div>they're in. Consider choral writing of any century--sometimes singers (esp basses) are told to take the higher or lower octave, </div><div>depending on their voice range. So switching the register for one of your voices is not going to hide your fifths! I suspect the </div><div>writers you list below take this understanding for granted.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Donna Doyle</span></div><div><div><div apple-content-edited="true"><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Aaron Copland School of Music</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Queens College</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">65-30 Kissena Blvd.</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Flushing, NY 11367</font></div><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">tele: 718-997-3819</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">fax:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>718-997-3849</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">email: <a href="mailto:donna.doyle@qc.cuny.edu">donna.doyle@qc.cuny.edu</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">email: <a href="mailto:donnadoyle@att.net">donnadoyle@att.net</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_____________________</div> </div> </div><br><div><div>On Jul 6, 2010, at 9:44 AM, Dmitri Tymoczko wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi everyone,<br><br>Recently I found myself looking through various first-species counterpoint rules and I noticed that neither Fux nor Jeppeson nor Gauldin prohibits consecutive (contrary motion) fifths in first-species counterpoint:<br><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e.g. (C4, G4)->(F3, C5) or (C4, G4)->(C5, F4)<br><br>This led me to two questions:<br><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1) Does anyone know of a set of first-species rules that *does* prohibit consecutive fifths of this sort? In particular, what's the earliest treatment of the issue?<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2) Can anyone think of any examples, preferably in two voices and from some Josquin-to-Lassus Renaissance master, of this sort of thing?<br><br>I can think of examples of consecutive fifths in three separate voices, as in (C3, G3, x) -> (D3, x, A3), but that's not as dramatic.<br><br>Thanks!<br>DT<br><br>Dmitri Tymoczko<br>Associate Professor of Music<br>310 Woolworth Center<br>Princeton, NJ 08544-1007<br>(609) 258-4255 (ph), (609) 258-6793 (fax)<br><a href="http://music.princeton.edu/~dmitri">http://music.princeton.edu/~dmitri</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Smt-talk mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>