<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear list: <div><br></div><div>Here are my last three messages re species ctpt sent yesterday (read from the bottom up). </div><div>They didn't reach you because I neglected to include my contact information in each </div><div>(believing that giving it in my first message was sufficient). I'm sorry for the delay.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Donna Doyle</span></div><div><div apple-content-edited="true"><div> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><br></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Aaron Copland School of Music</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Queens College</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">65-30 Kissena Blvd.</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Flushing, NY 11367</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">tele: 718-997-3819</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">fax:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>718-997-3849</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">email: <a href="mailto:donna.doyle@qc.cuny.edu">donna.doyle@qc.cuny.edu</a></font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">email: <a href="mailto:donnadoyle@att.net">donnadoyle@att.net</a></font></p><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><br></p></div></div><div><div><div>____________________</div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">July 7, 2010 4:22:35 PM EDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Donna Doyle <<a href="mailto:donnadoyle@att.net">donnadoyle@att.net</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Cc: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">"Peter Schubert, Prof." <<a href="mailto:peter.schubert@mcgill.ca">peter.schubert@mcgill.ca</a>>, "Dunsby, Jonathan" <<a href="mailto:jdunsby@esm.rochester.edu">jdunsby@esm.rochester.edu</a>>, "<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>Re: [Smt-talk]:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>First Species Question</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> </div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>As you know, as Fux progresses through Gradus, he somewhat relaxes the rules (e. g., p. 86 of Mann) </div><div>and, in the final sentence of Part III, advises (p. 139): "for as the number of voices increases, the rules are </div><div>to be less rigorously observed." </div><div><br></div><div>Might we not analogize counterpoint rules with ballet <i>barre</i> exercises--learned for proper formation </div><div>of the body and its movements but certainly not all there is to making dances? I would not like to </div><div>see someone<i> jeter</i> without having worked out at the <i>barre</i> first!</div><div><br></div><div>Donna Doyle</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>______________________</div><div><br>In response to P Schubert and R Hermann:</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div><div><div>On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Donna Doyle wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Perhaps we should remember that Dmitri's original query concerned two-voice (species) counterpoint<div>(viz, our subject heading). And then I introduced, only tangentially, SATB. <div><br></div><div>Bach may have assumed organ doubling at the bass octave; additionally, he superseded the rules </div><div>often to illustrate his texts. Re five- and eight-voice writing: given a three or four-note vertical structure </div><div>("chord") vocabulary, liberties can (must) be taken with some of parts.</div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>Prof Hermann: Please clarify your statement, "in a six-five chord a perfect fifth usually represents </div><div>the dissonant chordal seventh"? To which quality of six-five chord do you refer? It's true that </div><div>a V9 contains a P5 between the 5th and the 9th (and a V13 contains another between the 9 and the 13), </div><div>indeed, this was a basis for the polytriadic language of some 20th c composers (Hindemith, Schuman).</div><div>It is also the basis for the jazz composer-arranger Don Sebesky's term "upper-extended triads."</div><div><br></div><div>Donna Doyle</div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#006312"><br></font></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>_____________________</div><div><br><div>In response to J Dunsby:</div><div><br></div>In addition to Schenker's analysis of "Aus meinen Tranen" (Free Composition, Fig 21), a discussion of the illusion mentioned<div>below can be found in Cadwallader-Gagne's insightful analysis of Schubert's "Gute Nacht" (Analysis of Tonal Music, p. 134 ff). <div><br></div><div>Re my statement that a fifth's a fifth no matter what: surely we understand sound in both absolute and relative terms, i. e., </div><div>we hear a fifth as an objective measurement and then we place it in different contexts (e. g., inner voices) and/ or interpret it </div><div>psychologically (the protagonist's voice) to give it different significance. This discussion began with talk about species voice-</div><div>leading rules and, as you pointed out, Jonathan, perhaps dealing with our illusions is another thread; certainly separating/ </div><div>coordinating these issues is a challenging and fascinating enterprise. </div><div><br></div><div>Donna Doyle</div><div><br></div><div>____________________</div><div><br></div><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">donnadoyle <<a href="mailto:donnadoyle@att.net">donnadoyle@att.net</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">July 7, 2010 11:12:42 AM EDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">"Dunsby, Jonathan" <<a href="mailto:jdunsby@esm.rochester.edu">jdunsby@esm.rochester.edu</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b>Cc: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">"<<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>>" <<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><b>Re: [Smt-talk] Fwd: First Species Question</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div></div><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Perhaps this illusion is created by the role of the solo as the melody (top line), no matter what its register. Schenker addressed this issue, didn't he?</div><div><br></div><div>Donna Doyle <br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div class="WordSection1"><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:smt-talk-bounces@societymusictheory.org</a>]<b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dunsby, Jonathan<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, July 07, 2010 10:16 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Smt-talk] Fwd: First Species Question<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div id="idOWAReplyText58125"><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="color: blue; ">...fifths are (and sound like) fifths, no matter what registers... </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="color: blue; ">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: blue; ">Donna Doyle</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: blue; ">Aaron Copland School of Music</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: blue; ">Queens College</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: blue; ">65-30 Kissena Blvd.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: blue; ">Flushing, NY 11367</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; min-height: 14px; "><br>Well you say that, but almost as another thread I'm wondering just how and where, from a theory-building point of view, the illusion of 'part' integrity kicks in or doesn't? When e.g. a voice actually dips under the piano bass line in a 19C Lied, how come we don't hear it as the 'bass' (shades of Dichterliebe No. 2, of course, beloved of us theorists, but such happens all over Western art music, here and there)? My teacher always said "because that's what Messiaen taught us". But is there a history-of-theory etiology to this issue or perhaps non-issue? (Obviously, fifths with the 'bass' and fifths entailing only inner parts are not, in general, the same thing....)<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; min-height: 14px; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; min-height: 14px; ">Jonathan<o:p></o:p></div><div id="idSignature73492"><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas; ">______________</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Jonathan Dunsby<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Chair, Music Theory Department<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Professor of Music Theory<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Eastman School of Music<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>Smt-talk mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>