<br>This is an example of what Jose Antonio Martins calls a Dasian system. Indeed, it sounds like a textbook case of a phenomenon that he treats extensively in his dissertation (U. Chicago, 2005 or 06), with many examples from Bartok etc.<div>
<br></div><div>Rick Cohn<span></span></div><div><br></div><div><br>On Saturday, January 19, 2013, wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Smt-talk mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Geno- and phenotype musical structures (Nicolas Mee?s)<br>
2. Re: Geno- and phenotype musical structures (Victor grauer)<br>
3. fw: Lindberg mode (Daphne Leong)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:35:44 +0100<br>
From: Nicolas Mee?s <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'nicolas.meeus@paris-sorbonne.fr')">nicolas.meeus@paris-sorbonne.fr</a>><br>
To: Victor grauer <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'victorag@verizon.net')">victorag@verizon.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org')">smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Geno- and phenotype musical structures<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', '50F87CC0.9000508@paris-sorbonne.fr')">50F87CC0.9000508@paris-sorbonne.fr</a>><br>
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Le 17/01/2013 16:51, Victor grauer a ?crit :<br>
> You are of course right, Nicolas. Linear continuity and goal<br>
> directedness are characteristic of many musical traditions, not only<br>
> the Western liturical-classical tradition.<br>
Linear continuity and goal directedness ain't at all the same thing! I<br>
would consider goal directedness (teleology) as a defining<br>
characteristic of "modality". Linear continuity may well be a much wider<br>
phenomenon.<br>
Medieval hocket (and your own examples in your figures 12.5-12.8)<br>
appear to me a game of apparently destroying an inherent continuity, by<br>
a disruptive distribution among the voices; the overall effect remains<br>
highly continuous ("fluent"), only the singers themselve can easily<br>
become aware of the disruption. This is very much the case with /Amor<br>
potest/: you are careful enough to quote only mes 16 sqq., when the<br>
hocket begins, but the mes. before clearly consisted in "lines between<br>
the voices", making it clear that there were two pitch strands (say, one<br>
around F and the other aroung C a 4th below) to be distributed among the<br>
singers. You claim that Pygmies and Bushmen sing "highly disjunct<br>
motives"; but how can you be sure that they do not realize how highly<br>
conjunct the overall result is? Are you so certain that counterpoint in<br>
the West, especially in "free writing", "involves continuous melodic<br>
lines", rather than continuous overall situations?<br>
<br>
It seems rather difficult to ascertain whether melodic fluency, in these<br>
case, is not merely trivial. A succession of disjunct intervals,<br>
fanfare-like, appears almost bound to produce apparent linear melodies.<br>
This is inherent to the restricted number of degrees in any<br>
diatonic-like (or inherently consonant) system. How can you be sure that<br>
these highly disjunct counterpoints that you describe are not a game to<br>
hide or disguise an overall, resulting linear continuity?<br>
<br>
Nicolas Mee?s<br>
Universit? Paris-Sorbonne<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:02:43 -0500<br>
From: Victor grauer <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'victorag@verizon.net')">victorag@verizon.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org')">smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Geno- and phenotype musical structures<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', '641100.26803.bm@smtp103.vzn.mail.bf1.yahoo.com')">641100.26803.bm@smtp103.vzn.mail.bf1.yahoo.com</a>><br>
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At 05:35 PM 1/17/2013, Nicolas Mee?s wrote:<br>
>Linear continuity and goal directedness ain't at<br>
>all the same thing! I would consider goal<br>
>directedness (teleology) as a defining<br>
>characteristic of "modality". Linear continuity<br>
>may well be a much wider phenomenon.<br>
<br>
But goal directedness is surely an important<br>
element in Schenkerian analysis, no?<br>
<br>
>Medieval hocket (and your own examples in your<br>
>figures 12.5-12.8) appear to me a game of<br>
>apparently destroying an inherent continuity, by<br>
>a disruptive distribution among the voices; the<br>
>overall effect remains highly continuous<br>
>("fluent"), only the singers themselve can<br>
>easily become aware of the disruption. This is<br>
>very much the case with Amor potest: you are<br>
>careful enough to quote only mes 16 sqq., when<br>
>the hocket begins, but the mes. before clearly<br>
>consisted in "lines between the voices", making<br>
>it clear that there were two pitch strands (say,<br>
>one around F and the other aroung C a 4th below)<br>
>to be distributed among the singers.<br>
<br>
I reproduced the opening of Amor Potest in my<br>
older blog Music 000001 (from which much in my<br>
book has been drawn):<br>
<a href="http://music000001.blogspot.com/2008/03/141-music-of-great-tradition-41hocket.html" target="_blank">http://music000001.blogspot.com/2008/03/141-music-of-great-tradition-41hocket.html</a><br>
While the two upper lines are each in themselves<br>
conjunct (i.e., continuous) and to some extent<br>
goal directed, the continual stimmtauch<br>
obliterates, for the listener at least, these<br>
lines as linear continuities, producing a<br>
resultant not unlike the African examples I<br>
discuss elsewhere. This in turn produces a static<br>
effect dominated by the continual repetition of<br>
the simultaneity F-C, which makes it very<br>
difficult for the listener to hear the work<br>
linearly and produces, due also to the<br>
"maddening" repetition, a confusing and somewhat<br>
trancelike effect not unlike that of certain<br>
minimalist works today. I don't know what<br>
Schenker would make of this, but I don't think he'd approve.<br>
<br>
> You claim that Pygmies and Bushmen sing<br>
> "highly disjunct motives"; but how can you be<br>
> sure that they do not realize how highly<br>
> conjunct the overall result is? Are you so<br>
> certain that counterpoint in the West,<br>
> especially in "free writing", "involves<br>
> continuous melodic lines", rather than continuous overall situations?<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what you mean by "continuous overall situations."<br>
<br>
>It seems rather difficult to ascertain whether<br>
>melodic fluency, in these case, is not merely<br>
>trivial. A succession of disjunct intervals,<br>
>fanfare-like, appears almost bound to produce<br>
>apparent linear melodies. This is inherent to<br>
>the restricted number of degrees in any<br>
>diatonic-like (or inherently consonant) system.<br>
>How can you be sure that these highly disjunct<br>
>counterpoints that you describe are not a game<br>
>to hide or disguise an overall, resulting linear continuity?<br>
<br>
You raise a very interesting point. And in fact a<br>
great many of these Pygmy and Bushmen<br>
performances are in fact based on what I've<br>
described as "A basic 'theme,' sometimes heard,<br>
more often implied, that serves, along with the<br>
rhythmic cycle, as an underlying organizational<br>
element." One might speculate that this sort of<br>
thing could be the historical prototype of the<br>
Schenkerian "urlinie." (I'm tempted to place a<br>
"smiley" emoticon after that statement, but<br>
perhaps it's not so funny after all.)<br>
<br>
For example, in the Aka Pygmy song Makala, as<br>
presented in summary form in Michelle Kisliuk's<br>
book, Seize the Dance<br>
(<a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EXZWTnp2DO4/ThyU_f_iIjI/AAAAAAAAAbc/5bddmhRKsu8/s1600/Kisliuk+Figure+6-1.gif" target="_blank">http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EXZWTnp2DO4/ThyU_f_iIjI/AAAAAAAAAbc/5bddmhRKsu8/s1600/Kisliuk+Figure+6-1.gif</a>),<br>
the "theme" is presented in the uppermost vocal<br>
part, with some possible elaborations beneath it<br>
(the vertical lines and brackets were added by<br>
me). This theme is in fact essentially linear<br>
(though not all such themes necessarily are). (It<br>
would be interesting to learn whether a<br>
Schenkerian analysis of an extended portion of a<br>
performance of this song could recreate this<br>
underlying theme.) But most of the elaborations are clearly disjunct.<br>
<br>
While such performances can be based on themes<br>
exhibiting linear continuity, it's very difficult<br>
to hear the overall effect as an interplay of<br>
independent lines, each with its own continuous<br>
flow. What we tend to hear is a resultant, which<br>
is very different from Western counterpoint,<br>
where what is heard, ideally, is an interplay of<br>
independently continuous lines. Whether as you<br>
suggest the resultant effect could be "boiled<br>
down" into something continuous, is certainly<br>
worth exploring, but I must say I doubt it.<br>
Certainly the texture is continuous, but I find<br>
it difficult to hear anything linear in such<br>
performances, when taken as a whole. But since I<br>
don't understand what you mean by a "continuous<br>
overall situation" I could be misunderstanding you.<br>
<br>
Nevertheless, my principal point was that this<br>
type of musical organization seems fundamentally<br>
anti-Schenkerian, both in its tendency to<br>
substitute a resultant for an interplay of<br>
independent lines and its lack of goal-oriented<br>
motion, which gives the impression of tonal<br>
staticism rather than movement, as assumed by Schenker.<br>
<br>
Victor Grauer<br>
Pittsburgh, PA<br>
USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:12:08 -0700<br>
From: Daphne Leong <daphne.leong@Colorado.EDU><br>
To: smt-talk <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org')">smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Cc: Jonathan Leathwood <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'Jonathan.Leathwood@du.edu')">Jonathan.Leathwood@du.edu</a>><br>
Subject: [Smt-talk] fw: Lindberg mode<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'CD1EEC98.E39A%daphne.leong@colorado.edu')">CD1EEC98.E39A%daphne.leong@colorado.edu</a>><br>
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<br>
<br>
I'm forwarding the following query at the request of my colleague Jonathan Leathwood:<br>
<br>
I'm currently working on a long guitar piece by Magnus Lindberg from 2004 called Mano a Mano. I have a little familiarity with some of his earlier music and the influence of the spectralists is very obvious to the ear, and there is some literature about that. So far, however, I don't see much in the guitar piece in common with those works: in fact, I would never have guessed they were by the same composer. Instead, I see that the guitar piece it is mostly based on a curious mode that runs (in semitones) <11212?>, repeating the pattern every perfect fifth. For example: <C, C#, D, E, F, G, G#, A, B, c, d, eb, e, f#, g, a?>.<br>
<br>
Lindberg often uses common segments with other more common modes to switch back and forth. It turns out that the repeating pattern yields all pcs of the aggregate within a span of 22 semitones, and so he sometimes suggests other modes by selecting only the relevant pcs while allowing the governing mode to constrain the spacing. Finally, the mode is rich enough that you can write interesting music by choosing only the common tones between two of its transpositions, something I've noted in one passage so far.<br>
<br>
My question is simply whether you have encountered this mode -- perhaps it's quite well known and I just haven't seen it before. One thing I wished I had was a good labeling convention for it.<br>
<br>
<br>
__________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
Daphne Leong <a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'Daphne.Leong@colorado.edu')">Daphne.Leong@colorado.edu</a><br>
Associate Professor, Music Theory tel: (303) 492-4337<br>
Chair, Theory and Composition fax: (303) 492-5619<br>
University of Colorado at Boulder<br>
College of Music, 301 UCB<br>
Boulder, CO 80309-0301<br>
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