<div dir="ltr"><div style>List,</div><div style><br></div><div style>There's also William Pastille, "Music and Morphology: Goethe's Influence on Schenker's Thought," Schenker Studies (1990) 29-44. I believe this is drawn from Pastille's 1985 Cornell dissertation.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Best,</div><div style><br></div><div style>Bryan</div><div style><br></div><div style>Bryan Parkhurst</div><div style>PhD Candidate</div><div style>Department of Philosophy and Department of Music Theory</div>
<div style>University of Michigan</div><div style>Ann Arbor, MI, USA</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:05 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:smt-talk-request@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">smt-talk-request@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Metamorphosis (Michael Morse)<br>
2. Re: Semitonal voice leading (Ildar Khannanov)<br>
3. Re: Metamorphosis (Gregory Karl)<br>
4. Re: Metamorphosis (Arndt, Matthew)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:31:52 +0000<br>
From: Michael Morse <<a href="mailto:mwmorse@bell.net">mwmorse@bell.net</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Smt-talk] Metamorphosis<br>
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<br>
Dear Folks,<br>
I've been at least tangentially intrigued by the influence of Goethe on musicians and music theory for quite a while. Anton Webern's letter to his friends Josef Humplik and Hildegard Jone about the conception of his Variations for Orchestra explicitly ties that work to Goethe's Urpflanze notion. And I recently read a critical but very respectful study by Helmholtz of the contemporary status, ca. 1860, of Goethe's scientific ideas. It made me wonder; has anyone tried to synthesize the scattered but clearly considerable influence of Goethe's scientific ideas on music theory and practice? Are there studies you can recommend about particular musicians or theorists? Finally, has anyone here ever been involved with this set of issues?<br>
Thx,<br>
Michael MorseTrent University Peterborough, Oshawa<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:24:26 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: Ildar Khannanov <<a href="mailto:solfeggio7@yahoo.com">solfeggio7@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>, Andrew Schartmann<br>
<<a href="mailto:andrew.schartmann@yale.edu">andrew.schartmann@yale.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Semitonal voice leading<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:1368725066.99451.YahooMailClassic@web125304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">1368725066.99451.YahooMailClassic@web125304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Dear Andrew and the List,<br>
?<br>
this is a chicken-and-the-egg question but you will have to choose one over another if you do not want to enter le cercle vicieux.<br>
?<br>
First of all, I am not familiar with the concept of "German augmented sixth chords." Normally, when one national tradition introduces a new term, another tradition is there to evaluate and, sometimes, to contest the innovation. That was the case for French an German traditions in the 18th and 19th centuries. The phrase "German chord" does not mean anything to me for this particular reason but in Dimitar's terms it is an altered Subdominant, and this explains everything.<br>
?<br>
The Subdominant supertonic four-three with augmented sixth and raised root does not sound like the Dominant seventh chord. It is a common?misconception. It sounds like Subdominant--nothing can hide its Subdominant origin.<br>
?<br>
Dominant seventh chord is not just any major-minor seventh chord. It is a Dominant seventh because it is related to Tonic this way. Besides Dominant seventh chord, a large group of other chords, with different voice leading obligations, ?are related exactly this same way, as Dominants. The same applies to secondary Dominant seventh chords as they are related to local Tonics.<br>
?<br>
My point has?been that Dominant seventh chord is such notwithstanding?voice-leading conditions in which it is commonly employed. On the contrary, its?quality (relation to Tonic) generates voice leading. Again, the horse should be placed ahead of the coach.<br>
?<br>
Counterpoint does not define the quality of intervals and chords; the?intervals and chords do define the rules of counterpoint.<br>
?<br>
The first?species of counterpoint suggests that we should not move in parallel fifth. Let us replace the quality of the interval (if you think that contrapuntal context defines the quality of the interval).?We should not move in parallel x. This statement loses its meaning? because?it is exactly the quality?of the interval, the P5, that defines the "rule of counterpoint" and not vice versa.?And indeed, in history of music theory there were many?attempts to characterize the phenomenal quality of the P5 as the determinant of this particular?rule of counterpoint, including the theological explanation (the P5 represents God and its replication?in adjacency would be a blasphemy).<br>
?<br>
Intervals, chords and their intrinsic qualities (functions)?are mental products, the results of logic and abstract thinking. They accompany composition, performance and listening experience.<br>
?<br>
Best wishes,<br>
?<br>
Ildar Khannanov<br>
Peabody Institute<br>
<a href="mailto:solfeggio7@yahoo.com">solfeggio7@yahoo.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Tue, 5/14/13, Andrew Schartmann <<a href="mailto:andrew.schartmann@yale.edu">andrew.schartmann@yale.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Andrew Schartmann <<a href="mailto:andrew.schartmann@yale.edu">andrew.schartmann@yale.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Semitonal voice leading<br>
To: <a href="mailto:smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a><br>
Date: Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 4:31 PM<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dimitar,<br>
<br>
<br>
To unravel what you said, you're making the basic point that "rules" of counterpoint and harmony are style-based/context-based. I'm not sure anyone would argue with you, unless they're willing to posit music theory as a natural science, in which case they'd be wrong.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ildar,<br>
<br>
<br>
I want to make sure I fully understand what you're getting at when you say that "the question of function cannot be and should not be tied to the so-called voice leading context. The Dominant Seventh chord functions as Dominant with or without the resolution triad in sight." This is a tautology.<br>
<br>
<br>
I assume, however, that you mean the following: a major-minor seventh chord functions as a dominant no matter where we find it. If you hold this to be true, I'm going to guess you haven't listened to much beyond classical music. And even if we stay within the classical repertoire, what do you make of German augmented sixth chords?<br>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Andrew Schartmann<br>
Graduate Student<br>
Yale University<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 22:25:39 -0400<br>
From: Gregory Karl <<a href="mailto:gregkarl@frontier.com">gregkarl@frontier.com</a>><br>
To: smt-talk <<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Metamorphosis<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:9CFE7D4A-F946-4048-8439-08B5B5DCB233@frontier.com">9CFE7D4A-F946-4048-8439-08B5B5DCB233@frontier.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";<br>
DelSp="yes"<br>
<br>
Hi Michael,<br>
<br>
If I remember correctly, this article uses the Urpflanze as its prime<br>
example of bad science. It may cite some useful sources:<br>
<br>
David L. Montgomery , "The Myth of Organicism: From Bad Science to<br>
Great Art," The Musical Quarterly, 75 (1991)<br>
<br>
Ruth Solie's "The Living Work: Organicism and Musical<br>
Analysis," (19th-Century Music 4 (1980)) might have some good leads.<br>
It's been a while; I just don't remember.<br>
<br>
Bye now,<br>
Greg Karl<br>
Jay NY<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On May 16, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Michael Morse wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Folks,<br>
><br>
> I've been at least tangentially intrigued by the influence of<br>
> Goethe on musicians and music theory for quite a while. Anton<br>
> Webern's letter to his friends Josef Humplik and Hildegard Jone<br>
> about the conception of his Variations for Orchestra explicitly<br>
> ties that work to Goethe's Urpflanze notion. And I recently read a<br>
> critical but very respectful study by Helmholtz of the contemporary<br>
> status, ca. 1860, of Goethe's scientific ideas. It made me wonder;<br>
> has anyone tried to synthesize the scattered but clearly<br>
> considerable influence of Goethe's scientific ideas on music theory<br>
> and practice? Are there studies you can recommend about particular<br>
> musicians or theorists? Finally, has anyone here ever been involved<br>
> with this set of issues?<br>
><br>
> Thx,<br>
><br>
> Michael Morse<br>
> Trent University<br>
> Peterborough, Oshawa<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Smt-talk mailing list<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 03:51:02 +0000<br>
From: "Arndt, Matthew" <<a href="mailto:matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu">matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu</a>><br>
To: smt-talk <<a href="mailto:smt-talk@societymusictheory.org">smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Metamorphosis<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:2025AEC9-99E6-4DA8-8623-E8FA80507B63@uiowa.edu">2025AEC9-99E6-4DA8-8623-E8FA80507B63@uiowa.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Dear Michael,<br>
<br>
Gary W. Don wrote a dissertation on the topic: ?Music and Goethe?s Theories of Growth? (Ph.D. diss., University of Washington, 1991). A few pieces by John Covach touch on the broader reception of Goethe's scientific ideas at the turn of the twentieth century, notably ?The Sources of Schoenberg?s ?Aesthetic Theology,?? 19th-Century Music 19/3 (1996): 252?262. And there have been several pieces about Goethe's influence on Schenker and Schoenberg in particular, the most notable of which is Severine Neff, ?Schenker, Schoenberg, and Goethe: Visions of the Organic Artwork,? in Schenker-Traditionen, ed. Martin Eybl and Evelyn Fink-Mennel (Vienna: B?hlau, 2006), 29?50.<br>
<br>
Matthew Arndt<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
The University of Iowa School of Music<br>
2700 University Capitol Center<br>
Iowa City, IA 52242<br>
319-353-2181<br>
<a href="mailto:matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu">matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu">matthew-arndt@uiowa.edu</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
On May 16, 2013, at 9:25 PM, Gregory Karl wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Michael,<br>
<br>
If I remember correctly, this article uses the Urpflanze as its prime example of bad science. It may cite some useful sources:<br>
<br>
David L. Montgomery , "The Myth of Organicism: From Bad Science to Great Art," The Musical Quarterly, 75 (1991)<br>
<br>
Ruth Solie's "The Living Work: Organicism and Musical Analysis," (19th-Century Music 4 (1980)) might have some good leads. It's been a while; I just don't remember.<br>
<br>
Bye now,<br>
Greg Karl<br>
Jay NY<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On May 16, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Michael Morse wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Folks,<br>
<br>
I've been at least tangentially intrigued by the influence of Goethe on musicians and music theory for quite a while. Anton Webern's letter to his friends Josef Humplik and Hildegard Jone about the conception of his Variations for Orchestra explicitly ties that work to Goethe's Urpflanze notion. And I recently read a critical but very respectful study by Helmholtz of the contemporary status, ca. 1860, of Goethe's scientific ideas. It made me wonder; has anyone tried to synthesize the scattered but clearly considerable influence of Goethe's scientific ideas on music theory and practice? Are there studies you can recommend about particular musicians or theorists? Finally, has anyone here ever been involved with this set of issues?<br>
<br>
Thx,<br>
<br>
Michael Morse<br>
Trent University<br>
Peterborough, Oshawa<br>
<br>
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