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<DIV>From Grove's <EM>Beethoven and His Nine Symphonies:</EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM> </DIV>
<DIV>"There is something extraordinarily <EM>entrainant</EM> about it throughout; a more consistent and attractive whole</DIV>
<DIV>there cannot be. In the Eroica some have complained of the Funeral March as too long, some of the Scherzo as inappropriate, or of the Finale as trivial; but on the No. 4 no such criticisms are possible; the movements fit to their places like the limbs and features of a lovely statue; and, full of fire and invention as they are, all is subordinated to conciseness, grace, and beauty."</DIV>
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<DIV>They sure don't write 'em like that anymore...symphonies or criticism! </DIV>
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<DIV>Happy holiday, everyone.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Michael Luxner</DIV>
<DIV>Millikin University</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>>>> Larry Barnes <lbarnes@transy.edu> 12/18/2013 10:03 PM >>><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I'm listening to #4 right now, and love it. It turns my head toward beauty unexpectedly, precisely because it doesn't demand my constant attention. And I don't always need dangerous places. <BR>It's nice to just come home and rest sometimes between adventures.</DIV>
<DIV>Larry Barnes</DIV>
<DIV>Transylvania University</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Dec 18, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Stephen Jablonsky <<A href="mailto:jablonsky@optimum.net">jablonsky@optimum.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><BASE href="x-msg://1864/">Art,
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<DIV>Thanks for your contribution. I read it with a smile on my face from beginning to end.</DIV>
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<DIV>I listened to 4 again last night and it is "nice but no cigar." It never goes to the kind of dangerous places that 3 does, so the ride is not as interesting. 3 is in trouble in the first phrase and the climax of the first movement still scares the hell out of me.</DIV>
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<DIV>What I do find interesting is how different each of the symphonies is and how they challenge us in different ways. I know very well there is no truth in matters of taste. My primary question (How do we measure greatness in music?) was meant to provoke thought, not to provide answers.</DIV>
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<DIV>Here is the five-level metric you need: 24k, 18k, 14k, 10k gold plated, and pyrite.</DIV>
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<DIV>Steve </DIV>
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<DIV>Bonus: If you use my metric for the Mahler symphonies what do you come up with? Don't we all have a problem with 6, 7, and especially 8. Like Beethoven 9, Mahler 9 is in a world by itself. And, yes, it is puzzling why a composer as great as Beethoven would write four overtures for the same opera.</DIV>
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<DIV>Steve</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; FONT-SIZE: medium; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"><FONT size=+0><B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Dr. Stephen Jablonsky, Ph.D.</B></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:33 AM, art samplaski <<A href="mailto:agsvtp@hotmail.com">agsvtp@hotmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Stephen Jablonsky wondered why LvB's 4th seems to live in "a quiet<BR>oblivion" compared to its temporally closest siblings. My opinion: it's<BR>simply like one of those traffic jams one hits upon for which there is<BR>no visible cause--everyone grinds to a halt, you inch along for a while,<BR>then everyone speeds up again. In other words, it's a traffic jam just<BR>for the sake of being a traffic jam; and like Jupiter's Great Red Spot,<BR>has no reason ever to stop (other than, by 3am there's usually too<BR>little traffic to sustain it). Likewise, the 4th doesn't get programmed<BR>simply because nobody programs it. I'm pretty sure that anyone<BR>programming _any_ Beethoven symphony will get noticeably higher<BR>ticket sales than for, say, _Miraculous Mandarin_... and CERtainly<BR>higher than anything by Ahnald.:)<BR> <BR>>Just for the fun of it, can you put Beethoven's symphonies in<BR>>order [of] greatness (if that is even possible)?<BR><BR>The radio show _Performance Today_ about 10-11 years ago did a week<BR>devoted to the things; and their guest conductor playing tour guide (I<BR>forget who) said something to the effect of, "There are 8 Beethoven<BR>symphonies... and then there's The Ninth."<BR> <BR>I personally don't believe you can do a meaningful ranking of them<BR>individually, but you can perhaps separate them akin to geological<BR>strata: 1-2 are journeyman works--competent, nicely crafted, but Not<BR>Noticeably Above(tm) the best mature works of Haydn or Mozart. At<BR>the other end is The Ninth, off by itself--and I'm not sure that _that_<BR>designation is more than retrospective accumulated cultural baggage.<BR>(Read Slonimsky's _Lexicon of Musical Invective_ for, ahh, opinions<BR>contemporary to its premiere.:) For 3-8, I very strongly doubt that you<BR>could get any statistically significant differences, even if you *could*<BR>devise some metric for "greatness."<BR> <BR>>What do you say about 8?<BR><BR>For the record, 8 is one of my favorites. More user-friendly than 3, and<BR>waaay less cloying than 6--although that last may be due to having<BR>watched _Fantasia_ too often years ago. (And I'm pretty sure I'd like<BR>4 more if I could hear it more...:)<BR> <BR>Art Samplaski<BR>Ithaca, NY<BR> <BR>q.t.: If on the other hand you want to hear a truly -terrible- Beethoven<BR>piece, make yourself sit through _Leonora #2_. It's exactly the same<BR>as L3--save that, like Lennie's rewriting the 1st mvt. of K550 for one<BR>of his Norton Lectures to be utterly 4+4+4+..., it is SO pathetically<BR>square re phrase rhythm as to border on torture and/or parody. The<BR>two of them would make a textbook case re shaping phrases for a<BR>form/analysis class, save that some lawyer might argue it constituted<BR>student abuse--and definitely *teacher* abuse to have to go through<BR>it year after year!<BR></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Smt-talk mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org">Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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