A few works come to mind:<div><br></div><div>1) Shostakovich's 14th string quartet</div><div>2) His prelude and fugue no. 13(?) - anyway, one of them is in that key</div><div>3) a scherzo by Balakirev (I don't remember the opus number)</div>
<div><br></div><div>I suspect there are more examples to be found in the Russian music lit.</div><div><br></div><div>Good luck with your list,</div><div>Andrew Schartmann</div><div><br>On Monday, May 19, 2014, <<a href="mailto:smt-talk-request@lists.societymusictheory.org">smt-talk-request@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Scale degrees (Nicolas Mee?s)<br>
2. Re: Scale degrees (Samarotto, Frank)<br>
3. F SHARP MAJOR (Stephen Jablonsky)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:01:44 +0200<br>
From: Nicolas Mee?s <<a>nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be</a>><br>
To: Marcel de Velde <<a>marcel@justintonation.com</a>>,<br>
<a>smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Scale degrees<br>
Message-ID: <<a>53792DC8.6060505@scarlet.be</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
The initial question, unless I am mistaken, concerned the use of<br>
numerals for the bass notes -- more specifically as supporting<br>
harmonies. Numbering the degrees of the scale is a somewhat different<br>
matter, but quite interesting nevertheless.<br>
<br>
What is interesting here is to see when the numbering (letters of the<br>
alphabet also may count as numbers) was made to cycle at the octave.<br>
-- Greek instrumental notation at times made use of the first seven<br>
letters of the alphabet, repeating the same letters turned around for<br>
the second (and possibly the third) octave.<br>
-- Boethius and others made use of alphabets without limitation, i.e.<br>
without cycling at any interval.<br>
-- Between Hucbald and the pseudo Odo of Cluny, the notation often was<br>
tetrachordal, i.e. made use of only four numbers, or letters, or names;<br>
this is the origin of hexachordal solmisation.<br>
-- Odo, /c/1100, apparently was the first medieval author to suggest the<br>
notation with seven letters, cycling at the octave, which is still in<br>
use today, and which for a long time was in use in parallel with the<br>
tetrachordal/hexachordal naming of the degrees.<br>
<br>
Ramos de Pareja is among those who proposed a solmisation system<br>
covering the octave, in eight syllables instead of seven, /psal-li-tur<br>
per vo-ces is-tas/ ("one sings with these syllables"), with /tas/<br>
denoting the same note as /psal/, but one octave higher (the vowel /a/<br>
was intended to convey some idea of their identity). Mersenne, I think,<br>
similarly proposed (among many other systems) /ut re mi fa sol la si<br>
dut/, where /dut/ denoted that it was the high octave.<br>
Ramos started from F because that was the normal lower limit of<br>
organ keyboards by the end of the 15th century, and the normal extension<br>
of the musical system, one degree lower than the original Gamma of Odo.<br>
However, he numbers the degrees in various ways, once at least I think<br>
in the order of the cycle of fiths: 1=F, 2=C, 3=G, 4=D, etc.<br>
<br>
The numbering of the degrees of the rule of the octave is similar to<br>
numbering any scale degree; it obviously concerns the bass, though --<br>
but not yet the fundamental bass, it does not consider inversions. The<br>
use of Roman numerals to denote the roots of the chords originates with<br>
Georg Joseph Vogler, was popularized by Gottfried Weber and became a<br>
characteristic Viennese technique with Simon Sechter.**<br>
<br>
Nicolas Mee?s<br>
Universit? Paris-Sorbonne (emeritus)<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 16/05/2014 23:16, Marcel de Velde a ?crit :<br>
><br>
> Yes, where to draw the line?<br>
> I have a copy of Bartolomeo Ramis de Pareia - Musica Practica here<br>
> from 1482.<br>
> While he uses a letter system and ut, re, mi fa, sol, la and even a<br>
> finger bone system to lay out the tones etc. he will also refer to<br>
> "the third tone" of the scale, or the seventh tone, eight tone<br>
> (referring to the octave), 14th tone etc. throughout the book. And<br>
> later in his book he has a diagram of 22 positions where the 1 begins<br>
> on F.<br>
> 1 F, 2, G, 3 A, 4 B, 5 c, 6 d, 7 e, 8 f, 9 g, etc where certain tones<br>
> can be raised or lowered.<br>
> I don't have any older books, but it seems likely that these kinds of<br>
> things have been done before that. Boethius or one of the old Greeks?<br>
> Ramis himself also refers to several old books and tells of how the<br>
> older theorists held numbers in special regard and linking them to the<br>
> order of the planets and various other things.<br>
><br>
> Marcel de Velde<br>
> Zwolle, Netherlands<br>
> <a>marcel@justintonation.com</a><br>
><br>
><br>
>> Dear Nick et al.,<br>
>><br>
>> Perhaps this is addressing a broader question than Nick originally<br>
>> asked, but if we are concerned about the earliest uses of numerical<br>
>> notation to describe the seven notes of the scale (and not<br>
>> necessarily with attached "functional" meaning or specifically having<br>
>> to do with rule of the octave harmonizations), then there are earlier<br>
>> uses than the 18th century.<br>
>><br>
>> The first extensive system that I'm aware of where any note of the<br>
>> scale could be "1" is in Athanasius Kircher's "Musurgia universalis"<br>
>> (1650), where Kircher uses the numbers 1-8 (where 8 and 1 are<br>
>> basically interchangable) to number the notes of the scale in any<br>
>> mode. He provides tables for his 12-mode system showing how to<br>
>> convert between the numbers and notes (including common accidentals<br>
>> in each mode). (See volume II, p. 51.) The accidentals don't make a<br>
>> lot of sense in some of the modes -- I won't bother to try to explain<br>
>> what I think he was doing -- but the basic idea of numbering scale<br>
>> degrees as 1-8 is clearly present. (For example, in many of the<br>
>> minor-ish modes, he calls for flatting 6 and raising 7.)<br>
>><br>
>> In any case, he uses this system in dozens of tables to illustrate<br>
>> four-part composition. See, for example:<br>
>> <a href="http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?url=%2Fpermanent%2Flibrary%2FWFCRQUZK%2Fpageimg&mode=imagepath&pn=68" target="_blank">http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?url=%2Fpermanent%2Flibrary%2FWFCRQUZK%2Fpageimg&mode=imagepath&pn=68</a><br>
>><br>
>> However, Kircher is not the first to use this idea, and I believe<br>
>> I've seen it in a few earlier Jesuit treatises in particular. For<br>
>> example, Antoine Parran's "Trait? de la musique th?orique et<br>
>> pratique" (1639) has examples of his "Pratique de la Composition par<br>
>> nombres Arithmetiques." He explains it thus: "Pour signifier et<br>
>> exprimer en chaque partie, Vt, r?, mi, fa, sol, la, nous mettons 1,<br>
>> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: et pour monter plus haut adjouterons 7 et puis 8. sera<br>
>> le Diapason contre l'vnit?" (p. 74).<br>
>><br>
>> See the example from p. 77 in this image:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/17th/PARTRA_24GF.gif" target="_blank">http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/17th/PARTRA_24GF.gif</a><br>
>><br>
>> There may also be earlier sources than Parran. But from his<br>
>> description, he may intend to limit this numerical scheme to notes<br>
>> corresponding to hexachords beginning on Ut, which would not allow it<br>
>> to be as movable as Kircher's method (and thus perhaps is not yet as<br>
>> developed an idea of "scale degree").<br>
>><br>
>> Lastly, I would note that the earliest use of the numbers 1-8 for<br>
>> anything resembling this idea is probably in Spanish tablature of the<br>
>> late 1500s and early 1600s (see description and examples in Apel's<br>
>> notation book). However, I believe this was basically an<br>
>> octave-repeating system where the "white notes" were simply labeled<br>
>> 1-8, and other signs were used for octave designations. So these<br>
>> weren't really "scale degrees," but rather alternative designations<br>
>> for the notes beginning on C. (But perhaps someone else knows more<br>
>> about this -- I haven't really looked at these sources.)<br>
>><br>
>> There may have been earlier applications of Roman numerals describing<br>
>> the scale, but this is the first one I know of which employs Arabic<br>
>> figures.<br>
>><br>
>> All best,<br>
>> -John<br>
>><br>
>> ---<br>
>> John McKay<br>
>> Assistant Professor<br>
>> University of South Carolina School of Music<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:11 AM, <a>nick@baragwanath.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a>nick@baragwanath.com</a>> <<a>nick@baragwanath.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a>nick@baragwanath.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear List,<br>
>><br>
>> does anyone know who was the first theorist to number the scale<br>
>> (especially in the bass) from 1 to 7?<br>
>><br>
>> This is a mainstay of partimento rules, as in 'add a 3rd and a<br>
>> 5th to the FIRST//of the scale, add a 3rd and a 6th to the<br>
>> SECONDof the scale, etc.' It remains fundamental to modern<br>
>> approaches to tonality.<br>
>><br>
>> Although a seven-note scale is implicit in the modal system, in<br>
>> counting intervals in counterpoint, and in the French seven-note<br>
>> solfa system, I have not been able to find any occurrences<br>
>> earlier than about 1750. Numbered scales are commonly found in<br>
>> late 18th-century sources, such as Fenaroli (1775), Paisiello<br>
>> (1782), Azopardi (1786), and of course Vogler. But neither A.<br>
>> Scarlatti nor Durante numbered the notes of the scale. They used<br>
>> a Guidonian system which is incompatible with the notion of seven<br>
>> scale degrees.<br>
>><br>
>> Could scale degrees be a late 18th-century invention?<br>
>> Private responses are welcome.<br>
>><br>
>> Nick Baragwanath<br>
>> Associate Professor in Music<br>
>> University of Nottingham<br>
>> University Park,<br>
>> Nottingham, NG7 2RD, UK<br>
>> <a>nicholas.baragwanath@nottingham.ac.uk</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a>nicholas.baragwanath@nottingham.ac.uk</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> John Z. McKay, Ph.D.<br>
>> Assistant Professor of Music Theory<br>
>> University of South Carolina School of Music<br>
>> 813 Assembly Street<br>
>> Columbia, SC 29208<br>
>> <a>jmckay@mozart.sc.edu</a> <mailto:<a>jmckay@mozart.sc.edu</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:33:14 +0000<br>
From: "Samarotto, Frank" <<a>fsamarot@indiana.edu</a>><br>
To: Stephen Jablonsky <<a>jablonsky@optimum.net</a>>, Joel Lester<br>
<<a>joellester@aol.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a>vasili.byros@aya.yale.edu</a>" <<a>vasili.byros@aya.yale.edu</a>>,<br>
"<a>nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be</a>" <<a>nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be</a>>, smt-talk smt<br>
<<a>smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Scale degrees<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a>B97B7155C5375F40BDAC9C1D9CCCFF1311B50B5F@IU-MSSG-MBX102.ads.iu.edu</a>><br>
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<br>
I'll start. Beethoven, Op. 78.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
Frank Samarotto<br>
Associate Professor of Music<br>
Jacobs School of Music<br>
Indiana University Bloomington<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Smt-talk [<a>smt-talk-bounces@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>] on behalf of Stephen Jablonsky [<a>jablonsky@optimum.net</a>]<br>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 5:35 PM<br>
To: Joel Lester<br>
Cc: <a>vasili.byros@aya.yale.edu</a>; <a>nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be</a>; smt-talk smt<br>
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Scale degrees<br>
<br>
<br>
Some keys just have not been that popular. I challenge the gang to come up with standard repertoire pieces that are in F# major aside from a death-defying symphony by Mahler, a nocturne and barcarolle by Chopin, a romance by Schumann, and a sonata by Scriabin and Scarlatti, and a book called Anthology of Horror in F-sharp Major by Rene David Rivero. And, yes, I didn?t forget the WTC which stands alone in the history of music for way too many reasons and may prove that Bach was an extra-terrestrial.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr. Stephen Jablonsky, Ph.D.<br>
Music Department Chair<br>
The City College of New York<br>
Shepard Hall Room 72<br>
New York NY 10031<br>
(212) 650-7663<br>
<a>music@ccny.cuny.edu</a><mailto:<a>music@ccny.cuny.edu</a>><br>
<br>
America's Greatest Chair<br>
in the low-priced field<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 22:38:47 -0400<br>
From: Stephen Jablonsky <<a>jablonsky@optimum.net</a>><br>
To: smt-talk smt <<a>smt-talk@societymusictheory.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Smt-talk] F SHARP MAJOR<br>
Message-ID: <<a>A31B764E-56A0-4528-9A74-3DEE1C06B166@optimum.net</a>><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">Andrew Schartmann<br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="font-family:georgia,serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,153,153)">PhD Student, Yale </span></span><span style="color:rgb(153,153,153)">Department of Music</span><br>
</font></div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,153,153)"><font><span style="color:rgb(153,153,153)"><a href="http://www.andrewschartmann.com" target="_blank">andrewschartmann.com</a></span></font><br>
</span></span></div><span style="font-family:garamond,serif"></span></div><br>