<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:14pt"><div style="" class=""><br style="">Darryl White wrote:</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br style="" class="">"Victor Grauer and Peter
Schubert agree that "counterpoint is the father of melody." Perhaps this
idea also helps explain the omission.<br style="" class="">
<br style="" class="">I wonder what those monodic melodists of ancient (and present) times would think of such ideas."</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">Well, first of all, I was talking about an instructional strategy, not the art of melody writing per se. Secondly, my principal point had to do with the difference between a dialectical and a non-dialectical approach. Fire is obtained by rubbing two sticks together. Babies are made via an analogous process. :-) The melodists of ancient times rubbed tones against texts. <br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;" class=""><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">Victor Grauer</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">Pittsburgh PA USA</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br style="" class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 18.6667px; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br style="" class=""><i style="" class=""></i><span style="" class=""></span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div class="" style="font-family: garamond, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt;"> <div class="" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="" class="" dir="ltr"> <font style="" class="" face="Arial" size="2"> On Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:33 AM, Markus Jans <jans-thorpe@bluewin.ch> wrote:<br style="" class=""> </font> </div> <blockquote class="" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <br style="" class=""><br style="" class=""> <div style="" class=""><div style="" class="" id="yiv8734906051"><div
style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">There is, however, a very interesting little article by Hans Ulrich Lehmann, a Swiss composer and theory teacher, addressing the issue. He examines the intimate relationship between language-melody as well as text-rhythm and the </span><i class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Gestalt</i><span class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;"> of Soggetti. In addition to that, he also addresses the (however discrete) relationship between text-content and melodic </span><i class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Gestalt</i><span class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">. He does all this with examples of Palestrina, but could have taken any other composer of the time. The principles are universe. The article appeared in the „105. Jahresbericht der Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel“ in 1971/72, pages 51-68. Since
most of you will not have easy access to it, I attach the text below.</span><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Heartily</div><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Markus Jans</div><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">prof. em. Schola Cantorum Basiliensis</div><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Hoschule für Alte Musik, Basel</div><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">Schalerstrasse 3</div><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;">4054 Basel</div><div style="" class="" id="yiv8734906051yqtfd14527"><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;"></div></div></div></div><br style="" class=""><div style="" class="" id="yiv8734906051"><div style="" class=""><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;"></div><div class="" style=""><div style="" class="" id="yiv8734906051yqtfd50856"><div style="" class="">Am 24.05.2014 um 21:55
schrieb Peter Schubert, Prof. <<a style="" class="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:peter.schubert@mcgill.ca" target="_blank" href="mailto:peter.schubert@mcgill.ca">peter.schubert@mcgill.ca</a>>:</div><br style="" class="" clear="none"><blockquote style="" class="" type="cite"><div class="" style="font-family:Garamond-LightNarrow;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3">I always found it ironic that Palestrina is the model for general principles of melody writing. This has been the case since Jeppesen, a scholar who admired Palestrina's tunes for their Wagnerian
qualities, and who had no idea how counterpoint works.</font></span></div><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3"> </font></span></div><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3">I would like to be a fly on the wall of the present-day counterpoint classrooms where this type of writing is taught—is it just recycled Jeppesen? It's for sure not any historical source: no treatise in the Renaissance addresses "good melody writing" (except for the most obvious errors). Palestrina, like everybody else, stole, modeled, recycled, and wrote brilliant tunes, but there was no theory of melody in his day.</font></span></div><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class=""
style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3"> </font></span></div><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3">All that said, I agree with Victor Grauer that melodies are formed in context, and that IS supported by at least one theorist then: Juan Bermudo, who says “counterpoint is the father of melody.”</font></span><font style="" class="" size="3"></font></div><div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri;"><font style="" class="" size="3"><br style="" class="" clear="none"></font></span></div><div class="" style="font-size:14px;">Peter Schubert</div><div class="" style="font-size:14px;"><div style="" class="">Schulich School of Music</div><div style="" class="">McGill University</div><div style="" class="">555 Sherbrooke St.
W.</div><div style="" class="">Montreal, QC H3A 1E3</div><div style="" class="">(514) 398-4535 x00281</div></div></div><span style="" class="" id="yiv8734906051OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"></span><div class="" style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="" style="display:block;"><div style="" class=""><div style="" class=""><blockquote class="" style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;" type="cite"><div style="" class=""><font style="" class="" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><br style="" class="" clear="none"></font></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br style="" class="" clear="none">Smt-talk mailing list<br style="" class="" clear="none"><a style="" class="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank"
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