<html dir="ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" fpstyle="1" ocsi="0">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Times New Roman;color: #000000;font-size: 12pt;">
Indeed, Nicolas, this is the point: the two treatises should not be equated, because when it comes to laying out a scale (ie showing where the semitones lie)
<i>Musica Enchiriadis</i> uses its daseian notation, but when it comes to polyphony it uses A-G as placeholders (the A-G sequence is used not only to go up but also to go down!). I think the primary achievement of the
<i>Dialogus</i> is to build octave equivalence into the system – a legacy with us today. As well as make a single system which all modes could be laid out on. (Indeed, this concept is borrowed from as much of Boethius as these medieval theorists wanted, or
could understand, or could be bothered with.) So Hucbald has it too: but he does not have octave equivalence, or even same pitch equivalence: Hucbald is happy to call c trite diezeugmenon or paranete synemmenon, and C parhypate hypaton. Hucbald recognises
and octave, but he does not have names for the notes of the scale which would make this clear.
<div><i>f</i><br>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'" style="font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">(Dr) Fiona McAlpine</font></span></font>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Honorary Research Fellow</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">School of Music</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">University of Auckland</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080"><br>
</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><i><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Le Béguinage</font></i></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">42 Horns Rd</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">RD 1</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Oxford 7495</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">North Canterbury</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">NEW ZEALAND</font></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF528454" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Nicolas Meeùs [nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 22 May 2014 07:13<br>
<b>To:</b> Fiona McAlpine; art samplaski; smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Smt-talk] Seven-letter scale notation (was re: scale degrees)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><font face="Calibri">I do not think that the usage of the letters A-G in the
<i>Musica Enchiriadis</i> really can be equated with what the 11th-century <i>Dialogus</i> [of pseudo Odo] did. Is not it so that the
<i>Musica Enchiriadis </i>sequence starts at A and continues as far as necessary, and repeats it for a second voice, but without giving clear indication as to where the semitones are found? This is not utterly different from earlier usages [e.g. by Boethius]
were the alphabet was extended to as many letters as needed. The main difference in the
<i>Enchirias</i> is that the same lettering is used for the second voice.<br>
<br>
The unique achievement of the <i>Dialogus</i> is that it shows the organization of the musical system itself, i.e. of all pitches available to make music; so doing it repeats a point already made by Hucbald, that all music [that they knew] could be made to
correspond to one single systematic scale. Their aim was not to laying out modes, but to show that all modes could be brought back to the same [diatonic] scale.<br>
<br>
Nicolas Meeùs<br>
Université Paris-Sorbonne (emeritus)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 20/05/2014 08:28, Fiona McAlpine a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><style type="text/css" id="owaParaStyle"></style>
<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:12pt">
Perhaps we should just get rid of Pesudo-Odo, as if he is a person, & refer to the C10th treatise <i>Dialogus de Musica.
</i>In fact the C9th/early C10th <i>Musica Enchiriadis </i>uses the letters A-G as a repeating sequence; not, however, for the purpose of laying out a mode in a scalar way, but as pitch indicators in a diastemmatic-syllabic diagram to show organum at the octave,
in a way that the <i>Musica Enchiriadis'</i> tetrachordal notation never could have.<br>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'" style="font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">(Dr) Fiona McAlpine</font></span></font>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Honorary Research Fellow</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">School of Music</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">University of Auckland</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080"><br>
</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><i><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Le Béguinage</font></i></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">42 Horns Rd</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">RD 1</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">Oxford 7495</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">North Canterbury</font></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#800080">NEW ZEALAND</font></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF817127" style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Smt-talk [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:smt-talk-bounces@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">smt-talk-bounces@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>]
on behalf of Nicolas Meeùs [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be" target="_blank">nicolas.meeus@scarlet.be</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 20 May 2014 08:30<br>
<b>To:</b> art samplaski; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">
smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Smt-talk] Seven-letter scale notation (was re: scale degrees)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Calibri">My mistake, I meant <i>c</i>1000. Ps Odo predated Guido by about a generation, 25 years.<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
Nicolas Meeùs<br>
Professeur émérite<br>
Université Paris-Sorbonne<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 19/05/2014 18:35, art samplaski a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><style>
<!--
.hmmessage p
{margin:0px;
padding:0px}
body.hmmessage
{font-size:12pt;
font-family:Calibri}
-->
</style>
<div dir="ltr">A couple of digests ago, Nicolas Mee<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman','serif'; font-size:11pt"><font face="Times New Roman">ú</font></span>s wrote:<br>
> --[Pseudo] Odo, /c/1100, apparently was the first medieval author to suggest the
<br>
> notation with seven letters, cycling at the octave, which is still in <br>
> use today, and which for a long time was in use in parallel with the <br>
> tetrachordal/hexachordal naming of the degrees.<br>
<br>
A question, and a possible correction.<br>
<br>
Has the dating on "Odo" been revised? I had always thought he predated<br>
Guido of Arezzo by a few years. (The online NGD2 entry on modal theory<br>
still lists him as such, as of 10 min. ago...:)<br>
<br>
Guido definitely uses the seven-letter notation system in both the _Regule<br>
rithmice_ and the _Micrologus_, using an analogy to the 7 days of the week<br>
that I believe is also used by Ps-Odo--no access just at the moment to check.<br>
No idea if that analogy is original with Ps-Odo or was some sort of common<br>
coinage--if anyone has info one way or another on that I'd love to hear it.:)<br>
<br>
Art Samplaski<br>
Ithaca, NY <br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader" target="_blank"></fieldset> <br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Smt-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</a>
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader" target="_blank"></fieldset> <br>
<p class="" color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message.<br>
Analyse effectuée par AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.fr" target="_blank">www.avg.fr</a><br>
Version: 2014.0.4577 / Base de données virale: 3950/7519 - Date: 19/05/2014</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader" target="_blank"></fieldset> <br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Smt-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">Smt-talk@lists.societymusictheory.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org" target="_blank">http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org</a>
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader" target="_blank"></fieldset> <br>
<p class="" color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message.<br>
Analyse effectuée par AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.fr" target="_blank">www.avg.fr</a><br>
Version: 2014.0.4577 / Base de données virale: 3950/7519 - Date: 19/05/2014</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>