[Smt-talk] ut v do

Thu Jul 19 01:27:06 PDT 2012

Hubert Waelrand (+1595) probably introduced 'Ho' (or 'O') as the octave 
of 'Ut' in the second half of the 16th century. He also appears to be at 
the origin of the *syllabae belgae*, Bo Ce Di Ga Lo Ma Ni, which have 
the same vowels as Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si. Gibelius' Seminarium was first 
published in 1645 (Celle, Elias Holwein), but I don't know whether that 
edition already mentions 'Do'.

The earliest chromatic system may be that of David Hitzler, 1628, who 
proposed Ce Ci De Di Me Mi Fe Fi Ge Gi La Be Bi, 13 notes because Di 
(D#) and Me (Eb) somehow double each other. The system is an interesting 
mixing of alphabetic and syllable notation.

Fétis still wrote 'Ut' in his *Traité*, 5th edition, 1853, and some 
French authors (e.g. Vincent d'Indy) apparently still do so in the early 
20th century, but others had switched to 'Do' (e.g. Albert Lavignac). 
The *New Grove Online* (art. 'Pitch nomenclature') still implies that 
the French say 'Ut', but I met nobody here who did.

Nicolas Meeùs
Université Paris-Sorbonne

Le 18/07/2012 22:56, Ben Dobbs a écrit :
> Otto Gibelius (a student of Heinrich Grimm, who was in turn a student 
> of Michael Praetorius) uses 'Do' in his Seminarium modulatoriae 
> vocalis (published in 1657 in Bremen and 1658 in Rinteln).  Of further 
> interest is his alteration of the solmization syllables for 
> chromatically inflected notes.  He presents two sets of syllables, one 
> for singing unaltered pitches (using the syllables Do Re Mi FA So La 
> Ni Do), and one that accommodates inflection (using the syllables Di 
> Ri Ma Fi Si Lo Na Di) for a total of fourteen syllables (p. 107).  To 
> my knowledge, this is the earliest use of both 'Do' and chromatic 
> inflection, though there are quite possibly earlier ones.
>
> Regards,
>
> Benjamin Dobbs, M.M.
> Doctoral Teaching Fellow in Music Theory
> University of North Texas
>
>
> > From: smt-talk-request at lists.societymusictheory.org
> > Subject: Smt-talk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 19
> > To: smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
> > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:04:49 -0700
> >
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Movable-Do subculture in the Romance tradition? (Thomas Noll)
> > 2. ut v do (Peter Schubert, Prof.)
> > 3. Re: SIGHT SINGING BOOK (Ildar Khannanov)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:37:42 +0200
> > From: Thomas Noll <noll at cs.tu-berlin.de>
> > To: JAY RAHN <jayrahn at rogers.com>
> > Cc: smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
> > Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Movable-Do subculture in the Romance
> > tradition?
> > Message-ID: <A5B9D40E-2E6D-407D-A098-2A1454A7A8A3 at cs.tu-berlin.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > Dear Jay(!)
> > Re-Reading my quick posting I realized, that in a moment of 
> inattention I didn't insert your name into the salutation. Let me 
> assure that I'm well aware about your valuable contributions to 
> algebraic music theory since several years. Apologies for my inattention!
> > Sincerely
> > Thomas Noll
> >
> > > Dear John,
> > > Many thanks for pointing to this very interesting article.
> > > In this paper you seem to emphasize to a kind of "Hauptmannian" 
> aspect in Curwen's Tonic SolFa, where the major scale appears as a 
> triad of triads with the tonic triad in privileged the role of having 
> singular overlaps with the other two triads which are mutually disjoint.
> > >
> > > Your counter-factual 19-Tone illustration is very suggestive and 
> thought-provoking. The ideas is, that the (maximally even) C-, F#-, 
> and Gb- Major scales within the 19 tone scale have an analogous 
> intersection behavior as the C-, F- and G- major triads in the 
> (generic) diatonic scale; and that the relative voice-leading behavior 
> between these scales is analogous to that between the triads. It is 
> challenging to understand, what makes particularly these combinatorial 
> properties "tonal". I mentioned Hauptmann, because your construction 
> seems still to exemplify properties upon which one could project the 
> process of a dialectical triad in Hauptmann's manner.
> > >
> > > However, in the 19-Tone scale the extensions of three concepts 
> fall apart, which have the same extension in the major scale: do, fa 
> and so.
> > > (1) The roots of the three "Curwen scales" are C, F# and Gb.
> > > (2) The three "major thirds" in the role of the "sensitive 
> intervals" are here C-E#, Gb-B, and G-B# . see section 4.4 in: 
> http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.1/mto.11.17.1.clampitt_and_noll.html
> > > (3) In the Ionian mode the Tones C, F, and G form a tetractys 
> skeleton of the Ionian mode and the interval between F and G is the 
> diazeuxis (i.e. the interval between the generator and its octave 
> complement). This is still true for a fifth-generated 19-tone mode 
> abaabaababa | abaabaab, (where a is an augmented prime and b a 
> diminished second).
> > > The species of the "fourth" abaabaab (wich here has 8 microsteps) 
> is a prefix of the species of the "fifth" abaabaababa (wich here has 
> 11 microsteps). And the remaining factor is the "diazeuxus" aba. It is 
> not a step, though, in the 19-tone world.
> > >
> > > The three triples of anchor notes are close but yet different (1) 
> C-F#-Gb, (2) C-Gb-G, (3) C-F-G,
> > > Sincerely
> > > Thomas Noll
> > >
> > >> A study that relates Curwen's tonic sol-fa method to more recent 
> formulations is accessible at:
> > >>
> > >> http://pi.library.yorku.ca/dspace/handle/10315/6610
> > >>
> > >> Jay Rahn, York University (Toronto)
> > >>
> > >> --- On Mon, 7/16/12, Eytan Agmon <agmonz at 012.net.il> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From: Eytan Agmon <agmonz at 012.net.il>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Movable-Do subculture in the Romance 
> tradition?
> > >> To: smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
> > >> Date: Monday, July 16, 2012, 7:39 AM
> > >>
> > >> ?Moveable Do? syllables are (melodic) scale degrees, that is, 
> intervals from the tonic (reduced modulo the octave). The ?tonic 
> Sol-Fa method? was codified and disseminated by John Curwen in the 
> 19th century. However, the idea dates back to the ?octave species? of 
> medieval modal theory (and ultimately Greek theory).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Eytan Agmon
> > >>
> > >> Bar-Ilan University
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Smt-talk mailing list
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> > >> 
> http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *********************************************************
> > > Thomas Noll
> > > http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll
> > > noll at cs.tu-berlin.de
> > > Escola Superior de Musica de Catalunya, Barcelona
> > > Departament de Teoria i Composici?
> > >
> > > *********************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > *********************************************************
> > Thomas Noll
> > http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~noll
> > noll at cs.tu-berlin.de
> > Escola Superior de Musica de Catalunya, Barcelona
> > Departament de Teoria i Composici?
> >
> > *********************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:14:56 +0000
> > From: "Peter Schubert, Prof." <peter.schubert at mcgill.ca>
> > To: "smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org"
> > <smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org>
> > Subject: [Smt-talk] ut v do
> > Message-ID:
> > <5353D9442F30D641B121819995AE71B3145C65 at exmbx2010-9.campus.MCGILL.CA>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Nicolas Meeus wondered when ut changed to do. The earliest I know of 
> is Bononcini's Musico prattico (1673) where he says "S'avverta, che in 
> vece della sillaba Ut I moderni si servono di questa Do, per essere 
> piu risuonante" (p. 35).
> >
> > Peter Schubert
> > Schulich School of Music
> > McGill University
> > 555 Sherbrooke St. W.
> > Montreal, QC H3A 1E3
> > (514) 398-4535 x00281
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:12:34 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Ildar Khannanov <solfeggio7 at yahoo.com>
> > To: smt-talk smt <smt-talk at societymusictheory.org>, Stephen Jablonsky
> > <jablonsky at optimum.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] SIGHT SINGING BOOK
> > Message-ID:
> > <1342591954.25306.YahooMailClassic at web45002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Dear Stephen,
> > ?
> > I would love to look at it. Please, send me a copy (or a selection).
> > ?
> > One thing I noticed?while teaching ear training in Oklahoma and in 
> Baltimore is lacking of materials for the first stage, first 
> encounter. Ottman begins?with Brahms and?Bulgarian melodies.?It is 
> here where a student makes connection between what he or she knows as 
> music (songs my mother sang to me) and what is to be learned. 
> Folk??music is extremely important in the first stage, and I do not 
> mean Balinese folks music. No, local tunes, songs, dances. The Beatles 
> included. I remember myself solfegizing a song about Zaika--a Little 
> Bunny, at the age of four. This makes a connection between the natural 
> song element, national style and academic music. Kodaly supported 
> that, and others.?Proves to be the most important for composers and 
> performers.
> > ?
> > Later on, it is important to introduce melodies formed after real 
> music. Ottman's tunelets are quite inadequate. They are all?too short, 
> within a period.?In contrast, French collections, Dannheuser et al.. 
> present melodies in a small or even large?ternary form taken from 
> either operatic or instrumental repertoire. The middle section is 
> always diffcult to sing, but that is the sign of a good solfege. In 
> general, if solfege goes easy, it means that we are doing something 
> wrong. Solfege=suffering.
> > ?
> > Best,
> > ?
> > Dr. Ildar Khannanov
> > Peabody Conservatory
> > solfeggio7 at yahoo.com
> > --- On Tue, 7/17/12, Stephen Jablonsky <jablonsky at optimum.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Stephen Jablonsky <jablonsky at optimum.net>
> > Subject: [Smt-talk] SIGHT SINGING BOOK
> > To: "smt-talk smt" <smt-talk at societymusictheory.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 7:12 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > While the gang is knee deep in the solfege discussion I was prompted 
> to inquire about any possible interest in a new collection of 
> materials for sight singing classes on the college level. I have just 
> finished a book I call Molto Cantabile! that is a compilation of ?456 
> complete melodies drawn from folk, popular and classical repertoires. 
> They are organized by difficulty into four semesters. I was inspired 
> to do this because I have been using the Berkowitz book for decades 
> and always enjoyed its Melodies From the Literature section. Recently 
> I realized that today's music major knows almost nothing about the 
> great music of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Many of my students 
> do not even know the music of the Beatles because The Fab Four broke 
> up twenty years before my students were born. So I realized that even 
> though the bulk of the tunes in the Berkowitz/Frontrier/Kraft book are 
> well crafted by those three gentlemen it was important for my students
> > to have a working knowledge of the great tunes from
> > the concert history of the past three centuries. Because of the 
> difficulty and expense of including copyrighted music I have limited 
> the collection to works composed before 1923.
> >
> >
> > I would be happy to send you a PDF file of the index and some sample 
> pages so you can see what is included in the collection. Unlike Ottman 
> there are no unattributed tunes from foreign lands. All of the music 
> has a title and composer (when available). Unlike Karpinski, there are 
> no four-measure fragments. In most cases the tune is complete. If it 
> is a symphonic excerpt you get at least two phrases if not more. It is 
> my contention that students will work harder if they feel the content 
> is worthy of their efforts so every tune has been hand picked by me 
> with that in mind. Ten percent of the book uses C clefs and there are 
> a sizable number of duets.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prof. Stephen Jablonsky, Ph.D.
> > Music Department Chair
> > The City College of New York
> > 160 Convent Avenue S-72
> > New York NY 10031
> > (212) 650-7663
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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