[Smt-talk] Origin of "Semper idem?"

Mon Nov 19 17:57:08 PST 2012

The Irenaeus is Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (c.130-c.202). Whether 'modus' could have actually meant a musical mode to him is a tangled question but seems extremely unlikely in the context of a treatise against heretics. Hagenbach might have enjoyed the word-play of course.
If anyone is interested, I can refer you to writings by Charles Atkinson & indeed myself on the subject; all I'll say here is that even by the mid C9th, in the earliest medieval (ie, not late-antique) description of the modes by Aurelian, the word 'modus' simply means manner or way. He uses other words to describe what we now call 'modes'.
f
(Dr) Fiona McAlpine
Honorary Research Fellow
School of Music
University of Auckland

Secretary/Treasurer
New Zealand Musicological Society

Le Béguinage
42 Horns Rd
RD 1
Oxford 7495
North Canterbury
NEW ZEALAND

________________________________________
From: smt-talk-bounces at lists.societymusictheory.org [smt-talk-bounces at lists.societymusictheory.org] on behalf of William Helmcke [whelmcke at music.umass.edu]
Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:46
To: smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org; smt-talk-request at lists.societymusictheory.org
Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Origin of "Semper idem?"

Dear musicians,

About three years ago I facilitated a meeting of Latin scholars and I
asked a professor about the possible origins of Schenker's quote.
Although she did not know for certain, she nevertheless briefly
researched the topic and suggested two possibilities. One is from
Augustine's Confessions, which contains something similar (Confessions
8 8.3.6); this confirms Dr. Pastille's earlier observation. A second
is from a book written in 1850 by Karl Rudolf Hagenbach. Quoting the
professor, "The Latin here is taken from someone called Irenaeus (ad.
Haer. ii. 64) and says 'sine initio et sine fine, vere et semper idem
et eodem modo se habens solus est Deus,' which means 'Without
beginning and without end, only God continues truly and always the
same and in the same way.'" Finally, she also observed that the word
"modus" (modo in Schenker's quote) could either mean "way," "musical
measure," or "musical mode."

Take care,
-William

William Helmcke,
Doctoral Candidate in Music Theory, University of Massachusetts Amherst
Fulbrighter to Poland 2012-2013, University of Warsaw
Fulbrighter to Poland 2011-2012, University of Warsaw

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> 1. Bach quiz (Olli V?is?l?)
> 2. Re: Origin of "Semper idem?" (Donna Doyle)
> 3. Bach Quiz (auerbach at music.umass.edu)
> 4. Re: Origin of "Semper idem?" (John Covach)
> 5. Re: Bach Quiz (Olli V?is?l?)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:33:20 +0200
> From: Olli V?is?l? <ovaisala at siba.fi>
> To: smt-talk smt <smt-talk at societymusictheory.org>
> Subject: [Smt-talk] Bach quiz
> Message-ID: <788F47B7-9EB4-4D45-BF85-234DE3ABFE79 at siba.fi>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Dear list,
>
> Perhaps some of you might enjoy this kind of recreation. This is
> perhaps a quiz but it might also be a query. The subject is parallel
> fifths in The Well-Tempered Clavier (I and II).
>
> I know one example of quite unequivocal parallel fifths in the 96
> movements of WTC. Or perhaps two, if we count those produced by
> sixteenth-note triplets in the D-Major Prelude from WTC II. But I
> don't mean those.
>
> If the example I have in mind is the only one, this is a quiz. Who
> will know them or find them?! The quickest to answer gets the prize
> of ... unfortunately nothing more than the huge honor of winning the
> quiz.
>
> If there are more equally unequivocal examples, I am certainly
> interested in them, too, and this turns into a query.
>
> (Dmitri T., as far as the quiz is concerned, you are not allowed to
> use your computer program! ;-)
>
> Olli V?is?l?
> Sibelius Academy
> ovaisala at siba.fi
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:57:24 -0500
> From: Donna Doyle <donnadoyle at att.net>
> To: William Pastille <william.pastille at sjca.edu>
> Cc: smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Origin of "Semper idem?"
> Message-ID: <5C9F394B-1E30-4DEC-A315-E58BA84AFBD8 at att.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear William Pastille,
>
> Many thanks for your research and eloquent explication. The motto
> certainly sounds
> like Augustine. Totally off the cuff, though, I thought it came more
> directly from Goethe.
>
> Best,
> Donna Doyle
> Queens College CUNY
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2012, at 8:42 AM, William Pastille
> <william.pastille at sjca.edu> wrote:
>
>> I was able to find the following passage from Augustine's
>> Confessions, Book 8, Chap. 3:
>>
>> nam tu semper idem, quia ea quae non semper nec eodem modo sunt
>> eodem modo semper nosti omnia.
>>
>> That is,
>>
>> For you [are] always the same thing, because you know in the same
>> way all those things that are not the same nor in the same way.
>>
>> The meaning is, I think, that God must be in one and the same state
>> eternally, because his omniscient knowledge has to comprehend in
>> one selfsame act (both all that is eternal and) all that is mutable.
>>
>> One can argue with the metaphysics, but let's think about what this
>> means for the world we live in: if God is to be immanent in this
>> mutable world, then there must be a connection between His eternal
>> unchangeability (semper idem) and the worlds continual change (non
>> semper nec eodem modo). In Meisterwerk, Schenker implies, I think,
>> that God may be the "background" of our phenomenal world.
>> Transference of this notion to his analytical levels is obvious,
>> with the difference that Schenker is able to show the connections
>> visually so that they may be grasped by the mind's eye and ear,
>> whereas finding the "prolongations" that connect God to the world
>> of phenomena has not yet been made visible in so graphic a form.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Smt-talk mailing list
>> Smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
>> http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org
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>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:10:13 -0500
> From: auerbach at music.umass.edu
> To: smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
> Subject: [Smt-talk] Bach Quiz
> Message-ID: <20121115171013.150778qlfaw3sqit at umail.oit.umass.edu>
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>
> Greetings, Olli.
>
> I'll play. Writing off the top of my head, I'll note that I've always
> been tickled by mm. 49.3-51.2 in the C#-minor Fugue, Book II.
>
> It's a clear set of parallel 6/3 chords, but the upper two voices are
> stacked in fifths instead of the normative fourths. In my opinion, the
> little bit of staggering and chromaticism Bach imparts to the alto do
> almost nothing to mask the delightful // 5 effect.
>
> I'd definitely mark it as unstylistic on a student counterpoint
> assignment. The piece definitely still merits an A+, though.
>
> Is this more or less what you're after?
>
> --Brent
>
> -----------------------------------
> Brent Auerbach
> Assistant Professor of Theory
> Department of Music and Dance
> University of Massachusetts Amherst
>
>
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> Perhaps some of you might enjoy this kind of recreation. This is
>> perhaps a quiz but it might also be a query. The subject is parallel
>> fifths in The Well-Tempered Clavier (I and II).
>>
>> I know one example of quite unequivocal parallel fifths in the 96
>> movements of WTC. Or perhaps two, if we count those produced by
>> sixteenth-note triplets in the D-Major Prelude from WTC II. But I
>> don't mean those.
>>
>> If the example I have in mind is the only one, this is a quiz. Who
>> will know them or find them?! The quickest to answer gets the prize
>> of ... unfortunately nothing more than the huge honor of winning the
>> quiz.
>>
>> If there are more equally unequivocal examples, I am certainly
>> interested in them, too, and this turns into a query.
>>
>> (Dmitri T., as far as the quiz is concerned, you are not allowed to
>> use your computer program! ;-)
>>
>> Olli V?is?l?
>> Sibelius Academy
>> ovaisala at siba.fi
>> _______________________________________________
>> Smt-talk mailing list
>> Smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
>> http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:22:15 -0500
> From: John Covach <johnrcovach at gmail.com>
> To: William Pastille <william.pastille at sjca.edu>
> Cc: smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Origin of "Semper idem?"
> Message-ID:
> <CAPFg-FYxAGv-ccYJ_8TBj+5XhHidBWSHtpDcuV6ZTrSiG4RR0Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This interpretation is consistent with the kinds of mystical views of music
> often found in pre-WWI Vienna. The idea of God, or some spiritual world or
> entity, residing behind the physical world would not have seemed the least
> bit strange to Schoenberg, Hauer, Berg, or Webern (or Mahler). As I have
> argued elsewhere, Rudolph Steiner's interpretation of Goethe's scientific
> writings is a central source of the mystical readings on music in Germany
> and Austria at this time, mixed with a general knowledge of Schopenhauer
> (mostly the essays) and his elevation of music to the top of the arts.
> Adding a bit of Augustine seems quite natural in this context (even if some
> of these thinkers' ideas are not completely compatible).
>
> John Covach
> University of Rochester
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 8:42 AM, William Pastille <william.pastille at sjca.edu
>> wrote:
>
>> I was able to find the following passage from Augustine's Confessions,
>> Book 8, Chap. 3:
>>
>> *nam tu semper idem, quia ea quae non semper nec eodem modo sunt eodem
>> modo semper nosti omnia.*
>>
>> That is,
>>
>> *For you [are] always the same thing, because you know in the same way
>> all those things that are not the same nor in the same way.*
>>
>> The meaning is, I think, that God must be in one and the same state
>> eternally, because his omniscient knowledge has to comprehend *in one
>> selfsame act* (both all that is eternal and) all that is mutable.
>>
>> One can argue with the metaphysics, but let's think about what this means
>> for the world we live in: if God is to be immanent in this mutable world,
>> then there must be a connection between His eternal unchangeability (semper
>> idem) and the worlds continual change (non semper nec eodem modo).
>> In *Meisterwerk,
>> *Schenker implies, I think, that God may be the "background" of our
>> phenomenal world. Transference of this notion to his analytical levels is
>> obvious, with the difference that Schenker is able to show the connections
>> visually so that they may be grasped by the mind's eye and ear, whereas
>> finding the "prolongations" that connect God to the world of phenomena has
>> not yet been made visible in so graphic a form.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Smt-talk mailing list
>> Smt-talk at lists.societymusictheory.org
>>
>> http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> John Covach
> Professor of Music and Chair, College Music Department, University of
> Rochester
> Director, Popular Music Institute, University of Rochester
> Mercer Brugler Distinguished Teaching Professor, University of Rochester
> Professor of Theory, Eastman School of Music
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:52:02 +0200
> From: Olli V?is?l? <ovaisala at siba.fi>
> To: auerbach at music.umass.edu
> Cc: smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Bach Quiz
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> format=flowed
>
> Thanks Allyn and Brent, for participating and mentioning these
> interesting cases, but the fifths I mean are still clearer: two
> voices going from a fifth to fifth with no intervening note or
> suspension or anything. As a hint, I might add that one of the two
> voices is the bass.
>
> Comments on Allyn's example:
>
>> The clearest example I know of is from the B-flat Major fugue of
>> Book I, in the last eighth note of measure 41 to the downbeat of
>> meas. 42 in the lower two voices. There may be others, but that is
>> a very clear instance.
>
>
> These are noticeable for sure since there is just a dissonant 7th
> between two 5ths. However, it is not just any kind of 7th since the
> Eb is the governing bass note in this measure which implies that the
> main voice-leading in the lowest part goes form Eb (rather than G) to
> F. By the way, the mutable second countersubject also causes direct
> octaves in contrary motion in m. 37.
>
> Comments on Brent's example:
>
>>
>> I'll play. Writing off the top of my head, I'll note that I've
>> always been tickled by mm. 49.3-51.2 in the C#-minor Fugue, Book II.
>>
>> It's a clear set of parallel 6/3 chords, but the upper two voices
>> are stacked in fifths instead of the normative fourths. In my
>> opinion, the little bit of staggering and chromaticism Bach imparts
>> to the alto do almost nothing to mask the delightful // 5 effect.
>
> I think you perhaps mean mm. 47?48, don't you? In general, it is of
> course a good question whether 7?6 suspensions are enough to remove
> the effect of parallel fifths that occur in such 6/3 chains (with
> outer-voice 10ths). According to the Aldwell&Schachter "bible," they
> are normal (3rd edition, Example 21-16, discussion on page 368,
> Example 21-39: Haydn, Piano Sonata, Hob. XVI/52, I, mm. 58 ff.).
> Nevertheless, it is good question whether Bach tended to cover such
> fifths through some additional embellishment; for another somewhat
> embellished example, see WTC II: B-minor Fugue, mm. 38?39 (and for a
> bit similar octaves, WTC II: G-major Fugue, mm. 67?69). However, The
> Art of Fugue contains a striking totally naked example of comparable
> fifths in an ASCENDING chain of 6/3s, see Contrapunctus 8, mm. 122?
> 123 (the passage leading to the A-minor cadence). In this case, the
> 5ths are not broken by suspensions but by 7?6 appoggiaturas, which is
> all the more striking since such appoggiaturas are not so common in
> Bach.
>
> I'm looking forward to more suggestions:-)
>
> Olli V?is?l?
> Sibelius Academy
> ovaisala at siba.fi
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> End of Smt-talk Digest, Vol 46, Issue 18
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