[Smt-talk] Aesthetics of Computer-Generated Music
Marcel de Velde
marcel at justintonation.com
Fri Apr 8 16:42:50 PDT 2011
Hello Nicolas,
> It seems to me that the case of computer-generated music is much akin
> to that of fakes in art. This is all the more interesting that,
> according to Nelson Goodman, fakes cannot exist in an allographic art
> such as music.
I feel more along the line with Michael Morse and Nelson Goodman here I
think.
> What would be faked, in the case of computer-generated music, is its
> intentionality. The extent to which such music could produce an
> aesthetic effect strongly depends on the intentionality of the
> listener. For this reason, I doubt that an experimental study would
> produce any interesting result: the listener's answers would not
> depend on the music itself, rather (a) of their awareness of it being
> computer-generated; (b) of their opinion about this. I would think,
> therefore, that the question must be approached from a semiotic and/or
> philosophical point of view, not from a merely empirical/experimental one.
>
> Consider these cases:
> – At a not too recent conference in the Sorbonne, one of the papers
> was read by a guy who had written a piece of software generating what
> he thought was (good) tonal music. He explained that he had come to
> love this music so much that he couldn't hear any other any more. The
> examples he made us listen to where awful – or so thought several of
> us. Obviously, neither this guy nor any of us judged the music on its
> inherent aesthetic value: we were guided by our personal convictions.
> – Suppose that a real piece of music, written by a real composer, is
> presented as computer-generated. Many a listener might dislike it
> merely on the basis that it is (erroneously) thought to be a fake.
> – Inversely, suppose that a computer-generated work is made to pass
> for the work of an interesting forgotten composer: many critics will
> praise it and praise the rediscovery of an unjustly neglected master.
> – Etc.
I personally hope the music itself would matter most of all.
But indeed knowledge of how it was composed will be influential to at
least some degree in many people (perhaps strongly sometimes indeed).
But I'd find the effects in a blind listening study as Sandeep Bhagwhati
requested much more valuable.
Sadly I'm not aware of any such study.
>
> I do believe that common-practice tonality can be modelized with much
> more satisfying (and more precise results than what Marcel de Velde
> believes. Examples do exist (e.g. Mario Baroni, Rossana Dalmonte and
> Carlo Jacoboni's Legrense software described in their /Regole della
> musica/, successfully modelizing arie by Legrense).
Thank you, I was unaware of Legrense. I will look it up.
If it is indeed done truly successful, depending on how it's done and
written, that may weaken my point that one needs just intonation to do
successful algorithmic composition :)
Perhaps this music is suitable for the kind of study Sandeep Bhagwhati
is looking for.
But the first thing I'm thinking about is how did they write the
algorithm, is it still to be seen as a computer composition should they
do something more along the lines of "remixing" existing arie by Legrese?
>
> I don't think that intonation has any important share in this matter.
> After all, there exist recordings of, say, /The Art of Fugue/, on
> early synthetizers (Moog) which played in ET: I did not feel that the
> music suffered so much. The problem remains that just intonation isn't
> really usable in tonal music because the directionality of tonal
> harmony produces an unavoidable shift in pitch in just intonation. I
> suppose that one might construct a harmonic functionality that would
> balance the shifts in pitch, and that just intonation in that case
> might produce some sort of consonant effect that might seem of
> aesthetic value; but that would not be tonal music.
> Marcel, your experiment in just intonation seems to me to sound
> much more like "modal" polyphony of the 16th century than like tonal
> music, precisely because your algorithm probably makes no provision
> for a tonal directionality of the harmony – and because limiting the
> range to the 5-limit-harmonic did not confront you to the problem of
> having to prepare and resolve 7ths, which one of the main causes of
> tonal directionality.
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Nicolas Meeùs
> Université Paris-Sorbonne
Aah Wendy Carlos and Bach, lovely music :)
It was later redone by Wendy Carlos in several more historically correct
(Bach most likely did not use ET contrary to popular belief) and nicer
sounding temperaments.
I agree that intonation does not have a very important share (though
some will disagree here) in the rendering of common practice music.
At least 12 tone equal temperament comes close enough for the ear /
brain to interpret it correctly (it just sounds less good, colourful and
emotional)
The potential importance of just intonation is not about how it sounds
(though how it sounds starts becoming more important for certain things
that 12tet does not approach closely enough, though one could use 24tet,
31tet or 53tet etc in these cases, for instance for some arabic tones).
But the potential importance of just intonation is for understanding how
the tonal side of music functions. Therefore being of importance to
composition in the first place.
Btw the experiment in just intonation which I posted is not in correct
just intonation as I've written in the original post.
The example goes out of tune very often.
It was merely a small experiment and a wrong one at that, though it did
get some parts right in hindsight.
About an unavoidable shift in pitch in just intonation, this is not true.
There are many many systems which claim to be just intonation. And if I
didn't miss any then I've researched almost all of them and re-tuned
common practice music to almost all of them.
There are systems in which for instance every major chord is said to be
1/1 5/4 3/2 and every minor 1/1 6/5 3/2 (most commonly known ones) and
they produce both comma shifts in held notes, and produce drifts on the
5*5 axis. It also sounds absolutely horrible and completely
unacceptable. And makes no sense musically or mathematically.
You can find a variant of this in some automatic tuning software,
sometimes called adaptive JI.
Then there's a combination of 5-limit and Pythagorean in which a major
triad can be 1/1 5/4 3/2 and 1/1 81/64 3/2 depending on how it connects
to other chords, and no 5*5 plane (dominant 7th is most often 1/1 5/4
3/2 16/9 here). This variant will actually work without wolves or comma
shifts or drifting and sounds pretty good (much better than 12tet or
Pythagorean when done with some care)
Then there's extended JI in which for instance the dominant 7th is 1/1
5/4 3/2 7/4 (correct for some jazz or blues, but horrible in common
practice classical, it's not even dissonant) and even worse when ratios
like 11 and 13 are used, making common practice music sound like some
drunken arabic polyphonic comic haha. (however, the 19th harmonic for
the minor third is good in some functions)
The above systems are flexible, that is they are not fixed scales but
scales of potentially infinite size in which the music moves according
to a certain system for instance lead by the movements of the
fundamental bass.
Then there are countless variations which assign a fixed scale to the
the tonic or key. They produce wolves in unacceptable places (with the
exception of Pythagorean since our notation was based on it).
There's a popular belief that just intonation is a mathematical
impossibility.
But this is only true if one starts with very rigid and artificial rules
as a starting point.
Once you allow the music itself to indicate it's tuning and the function
of it's tones, then an almost infinite world of possibilities opens up.
And doesn't just intonation make so much more sense than for instance
equal temperament?
An octave is 2/1 in 12tet, but a fifth is not 3/2, and a major third in
an ending chord not 5/4 but irrational numbers (infinite length). They
have no relation to their root in any way in 12tet.
Surely music must be just intonation at it's heart, it's even how we
naturally sing and play on instruments that allow it (with some degree
of error).
I do not think that music demands the impossible of us. I think that in
all these thousands of years we still have not uncovered it's greatest
secret of all.
Kindest regards,
Marcel de Velde
marcel at justintonation.com
Zwolle, Netherlands
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