[Smt-talk] Fwd: : First Species Question

Fri Jul 9 16:44:51 PDT 2010

Dear list:

Here are my last three messages re species ctpt sent yesterday (read  
from the bottom up).
They didn't reach you because I neglected to include my contact  
information in each
(believing that giving it in my first message was sufficient). I'm  
sorry for the delay.

Donna Doyle

Aaron Copland School of Music
Queens College
65-30 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, NY  11367

tele: 718-997-3819
fax:  718-997-3849
email: donna.doyle at qc.cuny.edu
email: donnadoyle at att.net

____________________

> Date: July 7, 2010 4:22:35 PM EDT
> To: Donna Doyle <donnadoyle at att.net>
> Cc: "Peter Schubert, Prof." <peter.schubert at mcgill.ca>, "Dunsby,  
> Jonathan" <jdunsby at esm.rochester.edu>, "smt-talk at societymusictheory.org 
> " <smt-talk at societymusictheory.org>
> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk]:  First Species Question
>
> As you know, as Fux progresses through Gradus, he somewhat relaxes  
> the rules (e. g., p. 86 of Mann)
> and, in the final sentence of Part III, advises (p. 139): "for as  
> the number of voices increases, the rules are
> to be less rigorously observed."
>
> Might we not analogize counterpoint rules with ballet barre  
> exercises--learned for proper formation
> of the body and its movements but certainly not all there is to  
> making dances? I would not like to
> see someone jeter without having worked out at the barre first!
>
> Donna Doyle

______________________

In response to P Schubert and R Hermann:

> On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Donna Doyle wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we should remember that Dmitri's original query concerned  
>> two-voice (species) counterpoint
>> (viz, our subject heading). And then I introduced, only  
>> tangentially, SATB.
>>
>> Bach may have assumed organ doubling at the bass octave;  
>> additionally, he superseded the rules
>> often to illustrate his texts. Re five- and eight-voice writing:  
>> given a three or four-note vertical structure
>> ("chord") vocabulary, liberties can (must) be taken with some of  
>> parts.
>>
>> Prof Hermann: Please clarify your statement, "in a six-five chord a  
>> perfect fifth usually represents
>> the dissonant chordal seventh"? To which quality of six-five chord  
>> do you refer? It's true that
>> a V9 contains a P5 between the 5th and the 9th (and a V13 contains  
>> another between the 9 and the 13),
>> indeed, this was a basis for the polytriadic language of some 20th  
>> c composers (Hindemith, Schuman).
>> It is also the basis for the jazz composer-arranger Don Sebesky's  
>> term "upper-extended triads."
>>
>> Donna Doyle
>>
_____________________

In response to J Dunsby:

In addition to Schenker's analysis of "Aus meinen Tranen" (Free  
Composition, Fig 21), a discussion of the illusion mentioned
below can be found in Cadwallader-Gagne's insightful analysis of  
Schubert's "Gute Nacht" (Analysis of Tonal Music, p. 134 ff).

Re my statement  that a fifth's a fifth no matter what: surely we  
understand sound in both absolute and relative terms, i. e.,
we hear a fifth as an objective measurement and then we place it in  
different contexts (e. g., inner voices) and/ or interpret it
psychologically (the protagonist's voice) to give it different  
significance. This discussion began with talk about species voice-
leading rules and, as you pointed out, Jonathan, perhaps dealing with  
our illusions is another thread; certainly separating/
coordinating these issues is a challenging and fascinating enterprise.

Donna Doyle

____________________

> From: donnadoyle <donnadoyle at att.net>
> Date: July 7, 2010 11:12:42 AM EDT
> To: "Dunsby, Jonathan" <jdunsby at esm.rochester.edu>
> Cc: "<smt-talk at societymusictheory.org>" <smt-talk at societymusictheory.org 
> >
> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Fwd:  First Species Question
>
> Perhaps this illusion is created by the role of the solo as the  
> melody (top line), no matter what its register. Schenker addressed  
> this issue, didn't he?
>
> Donna Doyle
>>
>>> From: smt-talk-bounces at societymusictheory.org [mailto:smt-talk-bounces at societymusictheory.org 
>>> ]On Behalf Of Dunsby, Jonathan
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 10:16 AM
>>> To: smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Smt-talk] Fwd: First Species Question
>>>
>>> ...fifths are (and sound like) fifths, no matter what registers...
>>> Best regards,
>>> Donna Doyle
>>>
>>> Aaron Copland School of Music
>>> Queens College
>>> 65-30 Kissena Blvd.
>>> Flushing, NY  11367
>>>
>>> Well you say that, but almost as another thread I'm wondering just  
>>> how and where, from a theory-building point of view, the illusion  
>>> of 'part' integrity kicks in or doesn't? When e.g. a voice  
>>> actually dips under the piano bass line in a 19C Lied, how come we  
>>> don't hear it as the 'bass' (shades of Dichterliebe No. 2, of  
>>> course, beloved of us theorists, but such happens all over Western  
>>> art music, here and there)? My teacher always said "because that's  
>>> what Messiaen taught us". But is there a history-of-theory  
>>> etiology to this issue or perhaps non-issue? (Obviously, fifths  
>>> with the 'bass' and fifths entailing only inner parts are not, in  
>>> general, the same thing....)
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>> ______________
>>> Jonathan Dunsby
>>> Chair, Music Theory Department
>>> Professor of Music Theory
>>> Eastman School of Music
>>>
>>> Smt-talk mailing list
>>> Smt-talk at societymusictheory.org
>>> http://lists.societymusictheory.org/listinfo.cgi/smt-talk-societymusictheory.org
>>
>

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